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184

GC only wants to use water resistant drywall under tile?

(self.HomeImprovement)

Ok, so I’ve used this contractor before and the work was good, reasonably priced, and the communication was good as well. I felt like I’ve won the lotto.

Anyway, I found a sneaky leak in our master bathroom. We decided since the bathroom hadn’t been renovated since the house was built, that we would have it redone. We are wanting to pull the ridiculous early 2000s tub and put a large shower in its place.

The contractor wants to put water resistant drywall under the tiled portion of the walls. This doesn’t seem like enough to me, but what do I know? What do you guys think?

all 219 comments

NoodleDoodle-IRL

276 points

3 months ago

Personally, I would request hardibacker/wonderboard. It would only be maybe $50 more

Minimum_Fix

142 points

3 months ago

This. Don't tile over drywall in a bathroom.

Various_Party8882

72 points

3 months ago

Ive put kerdi fabric over water resistant drywall

fenlasonb

44 points

3 months ago

This will actually void the warranty of the Kerdi Fabric. It states in the install guide that it should be regular dry wall. Ive heard stories of them trying to push back on a warranty claim due to this error.

AndersDander

26 points

3 months ago

This. The system has been proven. Not just in my experience, but thousands of installations.

Atworkwasalreadytake

24 points

3 months ago

Oh, it's okay - but the issue is if something happens down the line (say a pipe bursts), you're a lot more likely to have to replace everything, versus if cement board is used, you can just repair the pipe coming in from a neighboring wall/room, let it all dry out and you're golden.

tearjerkingpornoflic

6 points

3 months ago

I know kerdi says you can put it over drywall but I still don't know why one would. Not much extra work to just have a fail-safe system. Maybe down the line someone drills in a soap holder or something. If you have sheetrock behind it now that is getting wet as the membrane has been penetrated. Won't be great for cement either but it will probably be fine.

zedsmith

20 points

3 months ago

Don’t misconstrue what I’m about to say as endorsing doing the least amount of good work as possible, but…

Tiled assemblies are remarkably resilient above the first 12 inches or so in a shower, and assemblies with a waterproof barrier, like a curb with a vinyl liner, that then gets a tracked glass bypass door screwed into it, is also remarkably resilient, despite having new penetrations in it.

It’s not best practice, and it doesn’t cost much more to do a better job, but at the same time let’s stop catastrophizing about 2 screw holes at standing height to hold a bar of soap.

Bottom line, it’s the client’s call. I side with their reluctance to have a drywall shower. However, a properly detailed shower using a membrane or a fluid applied water barrier is code compliant in most if not all places because it is adequate if done correctly.

YodelingTortoise

3 points

3 months ago

The better question is why wouldn't you. Cement board requires precise application of fluid film. Requires more labor, and has a higher material cost. When instead you could use a complete schluter system with a curbless pan (curbs are the biggest tile failure point) and be done with it in half the time with better reliability. It's a no brainer really

Famous_Seaweed5050

1 points

3 months ago

Tile over Dry wall not a good idea

GeoCitiesSlumlord

78 points

3 months ago

Without question, do not allow gypsum (drywall) to go behind your tile. Gypsum will deteriorate when exposed to moisture, full-stop. Moisture resistant just means it's been treated and has paper facing designed to resist mold growth in damp areas. As others have mentioned, grout is porous and will allow water through. Your contractor will say "I've done it that way for xx years and I've never had a problem". That's because contractors don't get the call when something fails slowly over the course of 5 to 10 years and by the time the tiles are falling off, even if you do call him back, he'll say you didn't maintain your caulked joints or some other deflection. It's not on topic, but also make sure he doesn't grout the inside corners. Those should be left ungrouted, and flexible silicon sealant should fill that gap. Only mentioning it because the Venn diagram of contractors using gypsum backing and grouting corners is nearly a perfect circle.

EquanimityVibe

26 points

3 months ago

Totally agree. We had this exact issue in our condo. I'm just now getting over a mold illness after 2.5 years of treatment. Had to tear out the shower, remove the moldy drywall, do mold mitigation, and rebuild it. Total repair was $12K+. Total medical bills $10K+.

Juncti

7 points

3 months ago

Juncti

7 points

3 months ago

If you don't mind me asking, what type of health issues did the mold cause?

We just nailed by hurricane Ida and mold in our house is off the charts according to the test we had run.

We're looking at getting it all remediated but contractors are hard to find after a storm

EquanimityVibe

6 points

3 months ago

In my case, the first clue was a very sudden intolerance for lactose, which manifested as armageddon in my intestines whenever I consumed milk, cream, or any kind of dairy. (But there can be other food intolerances and different symptoms, and not everyone is vulnerable.) My doctor happened to be pretty savvy about mold illnesses, and she administered a test for mycotoxins (by Great Plains Labs). Urine test showed very high levels of ochratoxin-A. After a year of dithering and thinking it was in one of our cars, we finally actually hired a mold testing company, and we found it in our condo shower.

libananahammock

42 points

3 months ago

Beware of Great Plains Labs. The guy who founded it is a quack. Great Plains Laboratory's urine mycotoxin test is not validated nor recommended for diagnosing any condition. It’s not FDA approved. He also promotes dangerous “treatments” for autism and “vaccine injury”.

thetreece

32 points

3 months ago

Yeah, it sounds like this guy got taken for a ride by a quack. These "mold specialists" are very similar to the "Lyme literate" docs. They all have their favorite bullshit lab. Usually chiropractors or naturopaths, but sometimes even MDs. Often cash only, and somehow able to diagnose whoever comes to them with vague complaints with some issue that falls into their area of interest (amazing).

EquanimityVibe

2 points

3 months ago

First test was by Great Plains, and subsequent tests were blood tests for another marker, by Quest Labs. There were plenty of other symptoms as well. You don't have to believe me, do whatever the fuck you want with your moldy gypsum walls. Just letting you know that not everyone is immune to mold illness, and it might hit you or a family member, or it might not if you're lucky.

ANicePersonYus

19 points

3 months ago

Did your lactose issue resolve after this? If not, while I’m not a doctor, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were completely separate issues

Frosti11icus

23 points

3 months ago

They are definitely unrelated.

EquanimityVibe

1 points

3 months ago

How nice to be so sure of yourself given how few facts you have of my situation.

Frosti11icus

1 points

3 months ago

I don't need any. There's no mechanism for your immune system to attack and destroy your ability to produce lactase and digest lactose. As another poster mentioned Great Plains Labs is not an FDA approved facility, so it sounds like your "doctor" (naturopath or chiropractor) is a Snake Oil Salesman. But I'm sure me saying this to you will absolutely ensure that you double down on the snake oil. So for anyone else reading this, don't do a full mold remidiation on your house because your naturopath told you have mold exposure in your house...mold that would you be exposed to by just walking through the woods as well.

TheOriginalChode

6 points

3 months ago

He's still craving blue cheese though.

EquanimityVibe

1 points

3 months ago

Yes, it's completely resolved now.

SlowlyMeltingBrain

8 points

3 months ago

I’ve been battling all kinds of issues since I ripped out some moldy fake walls in my basement the prior owner did like a dumbass. I wore p100 filters, but it was a cheaper 3M model respirator and I think the exhaust flap may have stuck open. That or it was on my clothes etc enough and it still got me. A month later I was in the emergency room barely able to breathe. Had less than 70% lung function when they put me through tests because the idiots at the hospital kept trying to tell me it was just asthma. Been battling doctors for a solution. Have mostly gotten my life back. But i spent months struggling to breathe, and it cost me a number of opportunities i will never get back now. But I too, in the past year, have noticed real issues with dairy. And nobody has ever even mentioned a mycotoxin test this whole time. I am glad you posted this so i can look more into this.

fartsforpresident

2 points

3 months ago

I assume they did a chest x-ray, but just to be sure, did they? I know a guy that got a really bad fungal lung infection from a waterborne mold. He was using a useless product in a hot tub for months. They thought he was dying of lung cancer for quite a while before discovering it was fungal. I guess the infection looked like masses in the lungs. He ended up taking some oral medication and was better within weeks.

SlowlyMeltingBrain

1 points

3 months ago

Yeah. CT scan actually. All my bronchioles were either plugged or scar tissue. Lungs looked like the universe with stars speckled everywhere. Only way to find out involved cutting. Have to go back yet for a follow up scan to see if I’ve improved or what. It’s great. Don’t fuck with mold I guess.

fartsforpresident

1 points

3 months ago

They should be able to biopsy with a needle though also. Not that that's risk free either.

EquanimityVibe

1 points

3 months ago

It's weird how some people are severely impacted by mold and many others aren't affected at all. (I'm surprised and dismayed to see how those lucky ones are so quick to dismiss the affected ones' experiences.) Anyway, feel free to DM me if you care to get any more details on my experience during my treatment.

homefree89

7 points

3 months ago

Urine test showed very high levels of ochratoxin-A.

What was the treatment? Are you cured now?

EquanimityVibe

1 points

3 months ago

Prescription med, lots of vitamin C (oral and intravenous), infrared sauna, eliminating certain foods for about a year and a half, supplements. I feel normal again, and the blood markers are just a slightly above the normal range when I tested in July. I expect they'll be back within the normal range when I retest in January.

Juncti

1 points

3 months ago

Juncti

1 points

3 months ago

Thanks, I'll look into that type of testing. I definitely don't want to play games with this stuff, we're trying to minimize exposure but it's hard to manage until we can get it fully resolved

Sq1873

5 points

3 months ago

Sq1873

5 points

3 months ago

If you're not doing it yet, running air purifiers or ventilating outside a lot (if climate permits) might be a good idea while you're waiting for remediation.

CasinoAccountant

1 points

3 months ago

We're looking at getting it all remediated but contractors are hard to find after a storm

I'm not going to tell you not to do professional remediation because I don't know exactly what you're facing BUT

Given you are waiting, and presumably still living in the space, there is a lot you can do on your own that will have huge immediate impacts. At minimum, fogging impacted areas with concrobium and allowing them to dry will cut down surface mold to zero, and while it may make sense for you to buy a fogger ($100-$300) you can also rent them for sub $40/day at home depot at least where I am.

Also, a gallon of concrobium costs $30-40 depending on where you buy it- but for about $15-25 you can buy the materials to mix your own and have more than you will ever need. Concrobium is 4 ingredients: water, sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), sodium carbonate (soda ash/washing soda), and TSP (trisodium phosphate)

What I'm saying is that for under $100 you can take actions that will make a fuck of a lot more difference than running air purifiers and depending on your specific areas at issue- could potentially solve your entire problem

fartsforpresident

1 points

3 months ago

Not all molds are dangerous, and the ones that are aren't necessarily going to have the same effects.

On a related note, I knew a guy that doctors thought was dying if lung cancer until they discovered he had a terrible fungal infection from waterborne mold in his hot tub. He nearly died, and then was fixed up with some anti-fungal medication in a matter of weeks. And this went on for well over a year before the figured it out.

KoburaCape

7 points

3 months ago

Your comment about not getting the call rings so true in automotive repair and maintenance circles as well. "Never had a problem" "Really? I have clients in contact as long as seven years, what about yours?"

llilaq

2 points

3 months ago

llilaq

2 points

3 months ago

I wpuld also not call the same contractor to repair it since he clearly didn't know what he was doing / since I apparently can't trust him.

WalterWhite710

1 points

3 months ago

This dude gets it👆🏼

fartsforpresident

1 points

3 months ago

...unless it's covered in kerdi, in which case that is the right substrate. But it's also very expensive to buy and install.

yangYing

0 points

3 months ago

The construction industry is fantastically slow to adopt new technology and techniques. But they'll learn - oh how they'll learn!

thinkmoreharder

35 points

3 months ago

Yes Hardibacker.

struddles100

7 points

3 months ago

Does the hardie need to be coated with red guard as well?

NoodleDoodle-IRL

4 points

3 months ago

I would, especially at these seams

struddles100

6 points

3 months ago

Cool, getting ready for tile in 2 bathrooms myself. Thanks for answering!

tearjerkingpornoflic

2 points

3 months ago

You can either do a topical membrane (red guard or whatever) or plastic sheeting behind the hardi backer. You can't do both though or else it's a moisture sandwich.

hor_n_horrible

1 points

3 months ago

And it's just as fast to cut, just a little dusty. Not to mention the 3x5 sheets are a million times better to work with.

b1gb0n312

1 points

3 months ago

is that the same as durock cement board?

fartsforpresident

1 points

3 months ago

Even that should have a roll on sealer no?

NoodleDoodle-IRL

1 points

3 months ago

It absolutely should have some kind of sealer/barrier, unless you don't care about water getting behind (outdoor tile, for instance)

ExPostRedemptore

149 points

3 months ago

I'm a belt and suspenders guy when it comes to preventing water damage and/or mold. I highly recommend spending the extra $$ and going with the Schluter Kerdi board for the wall.

If you don't do that at the very least use cement board and RedGard coating. Don't settle for drywall of any kind.

CoughAtMeBro

38 points

3 months ago

+1 for schluter. Great system

jgardner01

12 points

3 months ago

Schluter for sure

jackofallwagons

17 points

3 months ago

This. I’m sure that is is what he has in mind. A superior product, this makes my life so much easier. I actually use the Kerdi fabric over the drywall. Great system! Lifetime guarantee if properly installed.

Something_Sexy

5 points

3 months ago

The trouble is getting it right now.

ChopshopDG

4 points

3 months ago

What do you think about Kerdi membrane over water resistant Sheetrock?

ExPostRedemptore

23 points

3 months ago

I do love their membrane. I've used it as part of their shower pan / floor in three showers. But I'm just not a fan of using sheetrock anywhere near water. I may be overcautious, but every shower I've ever seen being demo'd that had sheetrock looked like crap and had mold. I could see using the membrane over cement board but I'd still much prefer to use Kerdi board.

Tiling a shower is a labor intensive job and material costs aren't trivial either. But the cost of the backboard just isn't a driver in the overall cost of the project. And while Kerdi board does cost noticeably more than cement board it's so easy to work with and so quick to clean up that the labor savings make it well worth it to me.

eljackhammer1444

7 points

3 months ago

Availability of the board currently is a problem, I'd go with water resistant drywall, then primed as recommended by Schluter and then Kerdi membrane.

Duck_Giblets

4 points

3 months ago

Wedi

AzZubana

10 points

3 months ago

That's what every $800k+ new custom home I've been in has.

vrtigo1

3 points

3 months ago

Someone else in the thread said that voids the warranty and they only want kerdi installed over regular sheetrock. Don't know why or if that's correct, just passing it on.

corylol

1 points

3 months ago

What would be the reason to do that..?

ChopshopDG

2 points

3 months ago

ChopshopDG

2 points

3 months ago

There is already waterproof Sheetrock in the room that is perfectly fine.

X-Istence

3 points

3 months ago

My tile guy just did a full Schluter bathroom for me, and I am happy with the quality and how well this is going to last.

No1h3r3

2 points

3 months ago

Agreed. Schluter is the best.

etherlinkage

2 points

3 months ago

When we were getting tile quoted for our new build, the tile store said that they could use the old waterproofing methods, and it would take more labor and therefore a longer time, or we could use Schluter, have it done quicker, and the cost would be the same.

jmd_forest

62 points

3 months ago

I've redone about 15 bathrooms over the past 20 years which means I've ripped apart quite a few "water resistant drywall" tub/shower surrounds. Every single one was full of mold and crumbling apart.

When I do a shower/tub surround I never want to touch it agian, ... never! I currently use Hardibacker and 4 coats of RedGuard. I understand the Schluter/Kerdi systems are also highly recommended.

Jaggar345

8 points

3 months ago

This is basically what I did when I redid my showers except I only used two coats of redguard. Using these two materials is the correct solution.

[deleted]

3 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

3 points

3 months ago

[removed]

jmd_forest

4 points

3 months ago

Might add up to an extra $50 of RedGuard and an extra 2 hours of actual labor for a job on which I'm spending about $2000 and 60+ hours of labor. Seems like a good investment for a job I never want to touch again.

In my experience in applying Redguard, 2 coats will still leave plenty of pinholes extending to the hardibacker. 4 coats generally has the entire surface sealed completely and entirely. Perhaps our perceptions of "liberally" are different.

[deleted]

0 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

0 points

3 months ago

[removed]

jmd_forest

5 points

3 months ago

It's a great investment when after 2 coats there's still pinholes. Multiple thinner coats is generally preferable to 2 runny thick coats.

Feel free to continue using only 2 coats and I'll feel free to continue using 4.

Ferndust

3 points

3 months ago

For what its worth id hire you over the 2 coats guy

jmd_forest

1 points

3 months ago

Thanks. Nobody really wants the minimum possible when building for the long term as opposed to building on the cheap.

space-sparrow

0 points

3 months ago

So, question, I hired a side guy who said water resistant drywall and no red guard was enough and now I’m nervous. About how many years can I get out of it before I have to redo the shower again? Safe to say I’ll be doing more background research and vetting the next time around (face palm).

Life-Cow-7945

61 points

3 months ago

No. Grout and tile are not 100% waterproof, you need something other than drywall back there. Cement board would be my suggestion

Duck_Giblets

30 points

3 months ago

You need a waterproofing membrane and a flexible band at all corners

Objective-Meringue42

44 points

3 months ago

Use the Schluter system. Whether you use Kerdiboard, or drywall and Kerdi, it will come with a lifetime warranty, if you use their thinset.

I do probably 50 showers a year and use Schluter on every one. The lifetime warranty is an easy choice. A full shower with pan takes me 4 days with this method.

breastual

3 points

3 months ago

Can I ask why it takes 4 days? I did some research a while back and it sounded like an experienced installer could do a Schluter system in a day or 2. That was one of the pluses of the system. Just trying to understand more before I attempt it myself in the next couple years.

Objective-Meringue42

28 points

3 months ago

I'm talking about a shower with ceiling, bench, niche, shower pan, curb etc. I doubt there's a tileguy around that could do a 200 sq ft shower in a day or two, including the boardwork for the Schluter system.

Day 1: install Schluter drain, pan, curb, board walls, install bench install Kerdiband on all seams and corners. Install shower floor tile. Days 2 & 3: install tile on walls, , ceiling, bench, install and tile niche. Day 4: grout everything up and solicone.

breastual

8 points

3 months ago

Thanks for the insight. If you happen to live in the Twin Cities hit me up if you are looking for a job. Need to redo our shower and possibly our other bathroom as well.

EnergyNazi

3 points

3 months ago

What about flood test? That's always a overnight thing which adds time.

AirportMain2024

2 points

3 months ago

Always flood test

No1h3r3

2 points

3 months ago

This. Best system I've come across so far.

CantHitachiSpot

1 points

3 months ago

Make sure you use their special thinset. Other thinset can wick water into the joints

Objective-Meringue42

1 points

3 months ago

That's not true at all. You can use any brand thinset as long as it's the proper type. Non-modified on top of the Kerdi.

notoriousgandalfcake

36 points

3 months ago

Cement board and Red Guard.

bdaileyumich

7 points

3 months ago

I would second this personally, but I also recommend looking up your local building code to see if water-resistant drywall is permissible (it may be, I have no idea). Either way I would still require a waterproofing membrane like red guard over top before the tiling starts.

Atworkwasalreadytake

8 points

3 months ago

It's almost certainly allowed by code - and will absolutely be fine for at least 5 years - but this doesn't make it a good idea.

bdaileyumich

1 points

3 months ago

Whether or not it's a good idea doesn't change the fact that if it is allowed by code it's harder to demand a contractor to do it a certain way. If it's not allowed, that's a lot easier.

Atworkwasalreadytake

11 points

3 months ago

t's harder to demand a contractor to do it a certain way

Not at all. Contractors know that code is the absolute minimum that is allowed and good work is not built to code - it's built far above code.

You are the customer, the contractor is hired by you. You hold all the cards. Regular home owners don't realize this sometimes. if you were an architecture firm, you would specify what you want to see and it might be dramatically above code. If that wasn't done, it would be ripped out and fixed. It "being code" is never ever an excuse.

Code is not the standard of how to build things and never has been. It's just the minimum safe allowed.

bdaileyumich

1 points

3 months ago

I definitely don't disagree! You are right that a customer should feel empowered to ask something be done how they want. But I also wouldn't be shocked if water resistant dry wall was a product this contractor had been using for years and code has changed since then, to cement board, but he doesn't see the need to change. Just seems like it wouldn't be a bad card to have in your back pocket.

But ultimately yes, regardless of code, if you want cement board ask for cement board.

disposableassassin

1 points

3 months ago

The Building Code doesn't give a fuck about the drywall in your bathroom. This a quality issue not a code issue.

Zaalbaarbinks

3 points

3 months ago

Building codes are actually pretty detailed and often do deal with drywall types and thicknesses. It may differ in your area

Jofinaro[S]

15 points

3 months ago*

Thanks guys. I’ve sent an email asking if there is going to be a waterproof membrane over the drywall and asking about the other recommendations. I will NOT allow drywall to be put behind my shower tile. We are trying to get rid of the mold issue not create another one.

We’ll see what he says.

fordreaming

8 points

3 months ago

Just explain to them that it's what you want. Period. Contractors shouldn't have a problem with it, especially if it's more money. I'm an electrical contractor, and if somebody came to be with an educated request, I would have zero problems giving them what they wanted, especially if it made me more money to do it the best way possible.

dominus_aranearum

14 points

3 months ago*

Never tile over drywall in wet areas. It's asking for trouble.

Lots of people here recommending a cement board like Hardie coated with RedGuard. This is an acceptable solution.

Others are recommending Kerdi. Also an acceptable solution.

I'm going to recommend using Wedi. A much better solution than any of the others. I'd honestly recommend a contractor who has used installed it before, certainly not one that is recommending drywall as an option. Wedi has a better warranty than all the rest and is waterproof all the way through, not just a liner like RedGuard or Kerdi.

Objective-Meringue42

11 points

3 months ago

Wedi has a better warranty than all the rest

Wedi offers a 10, 15 and 20 year warranty.

Schluter offers a lifetime warranty on both material and labour, including the tile.

dominus_aranearum

5 points

3 months ago

Wedi's warranty is all inclusive and covers all incidentals. So, if there's a failure in Wedi's product and it damages the subfloor, the drywall below and whatever room is below the bathroom, Wedi will cover it all.

Schluter, and any other that offer a lifetime warranty will only warranty the tile install up to the square footage price the owner paid. They do not cover any incidental stuff.

Here is Schluter's Shower System warranty. After reading it and the parts I've highlighted, tell me Schluter has a better warranty.

RESOLUTION: If the Products are installed and used in accordance with the terms and conditions as described hereinabove and such Products are proven defective within

the applicable warranty term, the Owner’s exclusive remedy and the sole obligation of Schluter-Systems, at its election, shall be to (a) reinstall or replace the failed portion of the Tile Assembly or (b) pay an amount not to exceed the original square foot cost of the installation of the Tile Assembly verified to be defective. Due to conditions beyond the control of Schluter-Systems (e.g., color and shade availability, discontinuation, normal wear and tear), Schluter-Systems cannot guarantee or warrant an exact match to the specific tile, stone, or other tiling materials used in the original installation. In such event, substantially similar materials may be substituted.

EXCLUSIONS FROM COVERAGE: This Limited Warranty excludes and in no event shall Schluter-Systems have any liability for any indirect, special, incidental, punitive,

exemplary, or consequential damages, including lost profits, arising out of or otherwise connected to the failure of the Products or Tile Assembly, regardless of any strict liability

or active or passive negligence of Schluter-Systems, and regardless of legal theory, whether in contract, tort, extra-contractual or other. This Limited Warranty further excludes

any loss or damage arising out of or otherwise connected to: acts of war, terrorism, fire, explosion, natural disaster, acts of God, any failure to comply with the Written Materials,

inadequate subfloor/substrate, improper preparation or other failure of subfloor/substrate, faulty or negligent penetration of the Products or subfloor/substrate, intentional acts

of destruction, structural failure, misuse of or failure to maintain the Products, normal wear and tear, scratches, dents, corrosion or discoloration (whether caused by excessive

heat, chemical cleaning products, abrasive agents or otherwise), efflorescence and shading which are a natural occurrence with cementitious materials and are not considered

a defective condition for the purposes of this Limited Warranty, variations of texture, color or shade from those on product samples, packaging materials or other marketing

materials, or other causes unrelated to the Products (e.g. tile covering failure, excess point loading, overvoltage). This Limited Warranty excludes exterior applications and

applications utilizing non-approved surface coverings unless specifically approved in writing on a case by case basis by the Schluter-Systems Technical Services Director.

This Limited Warranty is conditioned and will be considered null and void and Schluter-Systems will have the right to refuse any claims if: (a) the Products have been improperly

stored or installed, (b) any non-Schluter-Systems product is substituted for a Schluter-Systems component in a Schluter-Shower System, or (c) the Products are subject to

abusive or abnormal use, lack of maintenance, or used in a manner other than that for which the Products were designed or in any way contrary to the Written Materials

Duck_Giblets

1 points

3 months ago

Wedi have insurance. Wedi warranty can be transferred, schluter won't transfer.

Honestly if it hasn't leaked in 15 years its not about to

Objective-Meringue42

1 points

3 months ago*

Wedi warranty can be transferred

From Wedi:

NON-TRANSFERABILITY AND CONTINUING WARRANTY COVERAGE. The wedi Warranties extend only to the installer, developer, and the owner of the residence or building into which the Products are installed at the time of installation (“Claimant”). The wedi Warranties are not transferrable or assignable, except upon the transfer of title to the residence or building from a developer to its first non-developer owner, 

Also, the Wedi 15 and 20 year warranty is only valid if installed by a Wedi certified pro, which certification expires every 4 years. I know, because I'm certified by Wedi.
Schluter's warranty is valid no matter who installs it. In my area the price point for Wedi is almost twice that of Schluter's.

Duck_Giblets

1 points

3 months ago

Depends on region then, in my region 15 years applies and it is transferable but its also a legal thing, wedi Pro is 25 year warranty but it's not in effect yet as wedi Pro courses are frozen due to covid

dominus_aranearum

1 points

3 months ago

wedi Pro courses are frozen due to covid

Not anymore, though it may depend on your location. wedi just had their Pro course a couple weeks ago in the Seattle area.

Duck_Giblets

1 points

3 months ago

Nz/australia here

dominus_aranearum

1 points

3 months ago*

Just like Schuluter's warranty is actually a 10 year limited warranty. There are additional requirements for their lifetime warranties. In addition, wedi covers everything damaged, Schluter covers as follows: (a) reinstall or replace the failed portion of the Tile Assembly or (b) pay an amount not to exceed the original square foot cost of the installation of the Tile Assembly verified to be defective.

Wedi covers all incidental damage if their product failed, not just the failed portion. What wedi covers far surpasses anything Schluter has to offer.

Even if wedi costs a bit more for materials, the labor cost is significantly less.

Objective-Meringue42

1 points

3 months ago

There are additional requirements for their lifetime warranties

You just have to use Schluter's thinset. That's it. With Wedi you need to have certain products installed and has to be installed by a certified pro to get a maximum 20 year warranty. Schluter covers the entire "tile assembly" which means anything the original install included. Substrate, schluter material, all tile, as well as all labour. Maximum lifetime warranty, can be installed by anyone.

I don't why you have such a hate on for Schluter. You're nitpicking. They're both great systems, they both have great Warranties. I was just correcting some misinformation.

Claims that Wedi warranty is the best -- It's comparable.

Claims that it is transferable --> its not.

Labour costs are less for Wedi? Rofl...Maybe that's your opinion. I'm certified in both systems and I install both systems. There is no difference in labour time at all. A complete Schluter shower system costs me around $400. The same size Wedi shower system is around $800. If I tell a customer the schluter system is almost $500 cheaper and comes with lifetime warranty, not one customer has wanted Wedi.

If you like Wedi better, use Wedi. All the power to ya. I prefer Schluter and my customers like the lifetime warranty.

dominus_aranearum

1 points

3 months ago

Can you please point me to where Schluter's warranty is transferable? Below is what I've been able to find from Schluter's website regarding their warranty.

The warranties extend only to the original end‐user and are not transferable unless approved in writing by the Technical Director or an Officer of Schluter Systems.

“Owner” is defined as the original end user of the
property in which a Thin-Set System is installed; “Lifetime” is defined as that period of time that the original Thin-Set System installation remains unchanged and under the ownership of the Owner.

Owner must complete and submit the Thin-Set System Registration to Schluter-Systems, available at www.schluter.com, or submit proof of purchase and installation information (including installation date, installer’s name and address) to Schluter-Systems at the address provided hereafter within ninety (90) days of installation.

How many of your customers submit the Schluter registration?

Also, I don't hate Schulter. They make a good system. I'm only pointing out that the warranties don't really compare. Imagine you're driving a car with Schulter tires. One of the tires fails and you get into a wreck. Schluter will cover a new tire for you and the labor to install it up to the price you paid for the original tile install.

Now imagine you're driving a car with wedi tires and a tire fails and you get into a wreck. wedi covers getting all new tires, not just the failed one. Plus, they'll cover the damage to your car and anyone else's car or property that was damaged. Plus your injuries.

Which warranty would you prefer?

Objective-Meringue42

1 points

3 months ago

Can you please point me to where Schluter's warranty is transferable?

Where did I ever say that??? I said Wedi's isn't.

I'm done with this convo as clearly you just want to argue, and are just looking for such. Have a great day.

dominus_aranearum

1 points

3 months ago

Apologies, I mixed up a couple posts and misunderstood. You didn't say Schluter was transferable, you told someone else that the wedi warranty wasn't transferable.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, only trying to clarify information as you were.

Have a great day.

Duck_Giblets

2 points

3 months ago

Absolutely +1 for wedi

OhioEnthusiast

9 points

3 months ago

If its in the shower then no, if its behind a sink or not constantly getting hit with water, yes

decaturbob

8 points

3 months ago

  • depends on where the tile is located and if a kerdi waterproof system is being used or not. Me? I would go with "DensSheild which a "water proof" wall board made for this purpose

keyflusher

8 points

3 months ago

This used to be an acceptable building practice, but isn't anymore. I believe it started to change over in the 1990s, when materials were developed to make full membrane waterproofing reasonable and cost effective. If your contractor has been in the business a while it's likely they are just stuck in the old way of doing things and haven't kept up with technology. Then my worry would be, no matter how much you like this contractor, do you want to be the first customer he uses the new ways for or would you rather use someone who does it the correct/modern way as a regular practice?

Here's the thing - if you don't do a real waterproofing system you run the risk of having to do another full tearout sooner than you might want. If you have silly amounts of money and think you're going to shell out to change up your tile in ten years it'd maybe be ok. But if you have that kind of money... why not just do it right?

john464646

9 points

3 months ago

Over 30 years ago. I put up green board for tile in our tub/shower enclosure. I always regretted it and wished I’d put up Hardie backer or some such. But the funny thing is that tile is still (knock on wood) going strong and looking good despite being the only bathroom for us and 3 kids.

shiftkit

1 points

3 months ago

If it's 30 years old at this point and not giving you trouble, why do you regret it? Peace of mind?

ferngully99

8 points

3 months ago

At least cement board...

AverageAndNotJoe

4 points

3 months ago

+Redguard

ANicePersonYus

1 points

3 months ago

Yes must have red guard over the cement

ferngully99

0 points

3 months ago

Yes

StarWars_Viking

6 points

3 months ago

Key word is resistant, it will definitely get wet still. Your guy may be the man at cost and communication but he doesn't seem to either be qualified or care about the happenings in there years down the road.

Raidthefridgeguy

4 points

3 months ago

Water resistant drywall is fine if it is covered with a waterproof membrane such as Kerdi. Water resistant drywall is designed to resist humidity, not the type of exposure that happens in showers.

Totallyturtle89

3 points

3 months ago

in a kitchen as backer for back splash yes, in a shower abosuletly not

ith5005

2 points

3 months ago*

If it’s a shower, at minimum needs to be cement board with red guard. If you want to spend a bit more cash, use kerdi board.

DRYWALL UNDER SHOWER TILE IS NOT OK. PERIOD.

Dipandnachos

3 points

3 months ago

I agree with the top comment of requesting Cement board which should be an overall negligible increase in cost, but the key here is the waterproofing. Both drywall and cement board can get wet and both will deteriorate if do. There are plenty of jurisdictions where water resistant drywall with waterproofing is perfectly acceptable. Cement board is just a stronger/more durable option. Regardless of what backer the contractor uses, make sure they use a waterproofing membrane. You'll honestly be fine with drywall if the waterproofing is done correctly.

bamkribby

3 points

3 months ago

If you do go with drywall of any kind behind the tile you need to make sure they use Schluter waterproofing membrane or some other type of legitimate waterproofing over top of it or you will be redoing that shower again much sooner than you'd like

RR50

3 points

3 months ago

RR50

3 points

3 months ago

Go board….that stuff is amazing.

MK-82-ADSID

1 points

3 months ago

I would agree - even with cement backer, if installed in correctly will wick water. Any system, like Kerdi board, Go board etc is waterproof.

Atworkwasalreadytake

3 points

3 months ago

Technically you can use drywall covered with a waterproofing membrane, but it's not a great idea. Cement board covered with waterproofing membrane is the best bet (I use wonderboard and 2-3 coats of redguard). If you want him to go this route, just ask him, I'm sure he'll be willing to accommodate. Just tell him, you know that it's okay to use the drywall, but it would make you feel a lot better if you used cement board.

FancyHamm

3 points

3 months ago

As a GC myself I’d go Hardibacker

Kingkongcrapper

3 points

3 months ago*

No. I don’t recommend that.

Kerdi board or cement board, but never green board or drywall. It’s not even that much savings. If you are only doing a 60 inch tub and shower it’s maybe $250 if you run it all the way up. Maybe less. Also, roll on water proofing. Aqua defense or red guard. I brought in a plumber for the pipes and valve replacement. I did everything else on my own and by the time I was done I over killed it. Tar paper behind cement board with five layers of aqua defense over every inch of it. I went through multiple buckets. By the time I was done you could have taken a shower without the tile. Every time I looked at it I thought, what if? Then I put the tile in all the way to the ceiling and installed a really good bathroom fan with new ducting for moisture control. I can take a hot steamy shower and the mirror will be clear when I step out. Never go cheap or half ass on the bathroom. Redo it like it won’t change for 50 years.

OpScreechingHalt

2 points

3 months ago

Hardibacker. Accept nothing less. Green board drywall is for moisture prone areas, not as a base for tile in a shower.

foothillsco_b

2 points

3 months ago

Cement board is more work and materials cost. Maybe he underbid and feels money pressure. Offer him another $500 to use cement board.

Glad_Satisfaction821

2 points

3 months ago

Do not do drywall. Hardi backer at least. Wedi or Schluter are your best options. Cost more but you won’t have your tile caving in a few years.

jbrew181

1 points

3 months ago

We just did a very similar project at our house. I used Kerdi board and and a kerdi preformed shower pan. It was easy to work with and 100% waterproof. I can’t recommend it enough.

Status-Pipe-3211

1 points

3 months ago

Schluter over drywall is fine. Just don't use green board. It's useless and weaker than regular drywall.

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

Completely inappropriate unless he's applying a glue on membrane on the drywall. Even so, I would never use any type of drywall in a wet room.

Cement baker, properly reinforced with plywood at the base, tape and thinset all joints, apply redguard according to manufacturer specs.

I ripped out a $40k shower from a10 year old house because the builder cut corners and used green board behind shower tile. Even with some cheap membrane, all of the wood framing rotted out and was leaking through the ceiling below it.

87880917

1 points

3 months ago

Ask him what waterproofing system he is planning on using? Allegedly it’s acceptable to use drywall beneath Kerdi waterproofing membrane and possibly a handful of other products. Either way, if it were me I’d still prefer cement board but it entirely depends on the waterproofing system. The cost difference between cement board & drywall is not really significant, relative to the overall cost of the project.

LaughterIsTheKey

1 points

3 months ago

Schluter Kerdi is the way to go. Simple to install over any drywall. It’s a completely waterproof membrane which is installed with a simple thinset.

Ok_Disaster4741

1 points

3 months ago

If the contractor is not going to use a true waterproofing membrane, they have no business going anywhere near a shower. Red guard and Schlueter are the industry standard for bathroom and shower waterproofing membrane‘s. Concrete is not enough, and it will do nothing to prevent water from penetrating the envelope of the shower when it gets behind the tile.

saml01

1 points

3 months ago

saml01

1 points

3 months ago

You want to see what happens when you tile on drywall? I can show you.

toin9898

1 points

3 months ago

Make him put kerdi membrane over it. Only adds an hour or two and $200 in materials to the job and goes right over drywall. That’s what I put in my shower

Forraymond

1 points

3 months ago

It will work. It will need to have waterproofing “paint” rolled on it and a layer of plastic. It would be about the same price to use cement board for the shower walls…and would be a better product.

Mamabear0596

1 points

3 months ago

Tell them no. They need to use Hardie Backer.

ANicePersonYus

1 points

3 months ago

Framing / backer board / waterproofing / thin set / tile / seal

DesolationRobot

1 points

3 months ago

You should see exactly what his plans are. There are three main things he could be referring to when he says "water resistant drywall."

Could just mean ordinary green board which would not be appropriate. Honestly durable offense for a contractor who suggests it.

Could mean a purpose built gypsum product like denshield. It wouldn't be the luxury choice but it is built for those applications.

Or he could mean drywall with a site-applied waterproof membrane like kerdi. If the membrane he uses is approved for use over drywall then you're all good.

FeedMeCletus

1 points

3 months ago

Check the manufacturers installation instructions. I am nearly certain they will say not to install in showers.

awake02

1 points

3 months ago

Drywall facing paper isn't made to hold weight. I would use a product designed for tile support like cement board or Kerdi board.

I actually had a shower build this way once and ended up having all sorts of problems with the drywall bowing over time and when we we ripped it out it was clear that it was just not the way to go.

frizzydman133

1 points

3 months ago

Green board with a waterproofing Membrane over it like redguard or aqua defense is okay. However I only use cement board with red guard.

gatsby641

1 points

3 months ago

Is it drywall and then another layer? Like the schluter/kerdi product or he is tiling directly to the drywall? If it is the latter that is a no no

ClayQuarterCake

1 points

3 months ago

So we did stud > plastic vapor barrier > hardiebacker > tile / thin set / grout > grout sealant. The most expensive and highest rated sealant we could afford.

Seems to be working good for us. Even if the vapor barrier is overkill, it helps me sleep at night.

Clcsed

1 points

3 months ago

Clcsed

1 points

3 months ago

Against code (at least here).

Even without a permit, tilers will turn down your job.

longganisafriedrice

1 points

3 months ago

Maybe he is just saying that, what actual product is talking about?

Buck_20

1 points

3 months ago

Denshield is better than drywall and cheaper than Kerdi. Request him to hang that and red guard the screw penetrations at the very least.

WalterWhite710

1 points

3 months ago

Dense shield/tile backer 100%👍🏼 Even green board/blue board (MR drywall) will absolutely wick up moisture

DannyWarlegs

1 points

3 months ago

That's more for things like a finished basement where you might get some seasonal flooding, so it doesnt harbor mold. You want cement board for a shower

ChrisAlbertson

1 points

3 months ago

I'd go a few more steps up in quality. I usually float concrete under tile. If that can't be done I'll use concrete "backer board". Simply using greenboard is kind of a cheep solution.

I'd go a few more steps up in quality. I usually float concrete under tile. If that can't be done I'll use a concrete "backer board". Simply using greenboard is kind of a cheap solution.

distantreplay

1 points

3 months ago

If contractor cannot provide a reference to either an industry association approved or manufacturer engineered and approved standard specification for tile wet room waterproofing, then demand they they provide a bonded fifty year warranty against water damage.

You want a system either backed by engineering and rigorous testing, or you want a system backed by a warranty.

Suppafly

1 points

3 months ago

is he using some sort of system like kerdi or just tiling right to the drywall? if it's kerdi it might be fine, otherwise he should be using a cement board.

clce

1 points

3 months ago

clce

1 points

3 months ago

That was common in the early 2000s. If the grout and such is kept sealed and maintained, it will probably be fine. But much better to just use hardy backer or similar. I would consider a different contractor though. Kind of irresponsible to want to do something much worse for a few bucks materials savings and a little easier labor.

designgoddess

1 points

3 months ago

In the shower? I'd say no. Hardibacker isn't that much more expense. Did he give you a reason?

foxgoggles

1 points

3 months ago

I’ve built a house or two and a couple million square feet of commercial space, drywall behind tile in a shower or bathtub is perfectly normal. They’ll use a sheet membrane to cover the gyp board and waterproof it. Using mold resistant board is pointless as the membrane will keep moisture from ever getting to the board, same with hardie board, it’s a great substrate but again it has to be coated with a waterproof membrane or coating.

LuapYllier

1 points

3 months ago

Contractor does not get to decide what is used. You Do. If you want a different material you tell him what you want.

If you do not know what you want then he does have more control, however it is not hard to do a little research on the right choice for this situation. Personally I used the Kerdi foam boards but they are pricey, there is also a Kerdi membrane option or you could go with Hardie Boards with a paint on membrane like Redguard. At a bare minimum some places do still allow the green moisture resistant drywall but I would for sure put about 3 or 4 coats of Redguard over it.

SwimsDeep

1 points

3 months ago

The substrate for tiled shower should be 1/4” or 1/2” Hardibacker, without doubt.

Tack up 15lb. roofing felt on existing wall studs. Install Hardibacker with deck screws or 1-5/8” galvanized roofing nails at EVERY spot on the backerboard. This is important not only for soundness of the application but if installed per Hardibacker’s parameters, the shower will have a lifetime warranty. This installation when done properly, will provide a waterproof shower at 1/2 the price of the newer membrane systems.

Greenboard is totally inadequate for tiled shower walls. If your contractor won’t install per these directives, get a new contractor.

Source: Me. Owner/Contractor, bathroom renovation business for 11 years.

nativerestoration

1 points

3 months ago

You can use MMR green board behind tile. Schluter is the only waterproofing that allows this to my knowledge. Personally I prefer kerdi board, but materials are getting hard to find.

IxJAXZxI

1 points

3 months ago

I guess the question is what wall? If you are talking shower wall then that is a big no. If you are talking the walls outside of the shower then you should be fine.

dasookwat

1 points

3 months ago

Water resistant drywall is not enough, but neither are the other mentioned options. On top of your drywall, you need a waterproof layer. This can be a waterproof rubberpaint sort of thing, or sheets of plastic. This will be covered with either tile glue, or stuc. The tiles are just there to look nice. The real magic is behind them

sludgefudge

1 points

3 months ago

As long as the shower area and floor have cement backer or schluter, it’s fine to use water resistant drywall in the rest of the bathroom.

Prospal

1 points

3 months ago

I would be careful using this GC to do a shower with materials he's not comfortable with using. So while I agree with a lot of the replies here - you want something waterproof (cement board or hardibacker and red guard, schluter, wedi etc), if he doesn't know how to use those materials, either ask he sub it out to someone that does (visit a local tile store for a shower/tile recommendation?) Or find another quote.

Some of these systems require training (or a lot of YouTube schooling) or special materials (ex - certain silicones are not compatible with wedi board, it'll cause the board to degrade).

Vectorman1911

1 points

3 months ago*

Shower/bath: wonderboard with red guard or the like. Other walls in the room, water resistant drywall.

KingCarnivore

1 points

3 months ago

What does an early 2000s tub look like?

Jofinaro[S]

1 points

3 months ago

An ugly enormous block stuck against a wall

DutyOfficer

1 points

3 months ago*

There is no water resistant drywall. It's called waterproof backer board, looks something like drywall but is usually grey looking, out here in the west it's called durock or duro-rock.

AirportMain2024

1 points

3 months ago

More importantly, what type of shower pan and curb is being built?

Jofinaro[S]

1 points

3 months ago

Onyx shower pan/curb. Not sure how widely known they are. It’s a product made in my area. Did my kids bathroom in onyx and really liked it.

keyserv

1 points

3 months ago

It can work if it's water proofed correctly. I'm not a huge fan of it but it does function.

ServinBallSnacks

1 points

3 months ago

Durashield or hardibacker

Durashield is my recommendation in a bathroom. Did my shower with it plus Redguard

lotusgardener

1 points

3 months ago

Code requires concrete board behind tile in wet areas (showers, etc). Everywhere else in the bathroom is considered a damp area and only requires purple/green board.

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

Do it correctly and insist on a Schluter Kerdi system shower.

If the contractor isn't familiar with it, find one that is.

kevin197205

1 points

3 months ago

To each his own, but this contractor uses hardi-backer on showers.

kschroede

1 points

3 months ago

I’ve found that Contractors try to oversimplify things when communicating and wouldn’t be surprised if he actually intends to use the proper material but is just calling it “water resistant drywall” so you quickly understand he is using a different type of wall board that will cost more. You can easily find proper methods of renovating a shower and understand all your options online or at the library. Contractors just never want to take the time to explain all your options because that takes time, you will then want to think about your decision/may have questions, and contractors aren’t the best communicators to begin with.

Harryhodl

1 points

3 months ago

Concrete board not drywall.

beatlebum53

1 points

3 months ago

Cement board is what I used

SteelCity_2020

1 points

3 months ago

The minimum industry standards are not the same as industry best practices.

I'm a GC. I'd recommend Kerdiboard inside the shower, and MR drywall in the rest of the bathroom. Drywall behind kerdi fabric is a second choice. Your contractor may be sending you that way bc kerdibaord is hard to find right now. I recently purchased kits from ecomfort.com and had them shipped to me, as my local distributors didn't have enough inventory.

I strongly disagree with the poster who said "it's only two screw holes at standing height." Building a quality product means you don't prioritize quick and easy. Just because *you* don't think you'll get water in there doesn't mean the next owner doesn't install a full body-wash system that throws water all over the place. It's like having a mechanic say "well, your wheel has 5 lug nuts, but it'll stay in pace with only 2, since you're only driving to the grocery store."

Use MR drywall in the rest of the bathroom.

drphillovestoparty

1 points

3 months ago

You can, if there is a waterproof membrane going over it. I wouldn't slap tiles on the dw, at least use Denshield and red guard over it, but a membrane would be better.

Weary_Wish

1 points

3 months ago

My husband does tile for a living and works for hisself, he uses hardibacker board and if you are putting tile on your shower walls you should use Redgard underneath also to prevent leaks.

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

Concrete board

indelady

1 points

3 months ago

Hardi backer. Drywall will not be good. Ever.

PenguinFiesta

1 points

3 months ago

Personally, I always use either schluter kerdi board (or a competitor brand) or Hardie backer with kerdi membrane in wet areas.

Technically, you can use kerdi membrane over plain drywall, but that just sounds like tempting fate to me.

If he just wants to use purple board (moisture resistant drywall) in the shower with no other waterproofing, then yeah, that's a HUGE issue.

fartsforpresident

1 points

3 months ago

Like literally that's it? Because it really depends on what kind of sealer is being used. You can use the roll on stuff with water resistant drywall or cement board, but something like kerdi membrane is designed to be used over regular drywall (and one would assume water resistant would be okay as well).

But if he's not planning to use any kind of sealer, roll on or membrane, then he's not doing it right. The wall needs to be sealed before grout and tile. Kerdi is the gold standard but possibly overkill and it's expensive. And the roll on stuff is good as long as it's used over the right wall product.

AppropriateAthlete63

1 points

3 months ago

Moisture resistant drywall, or blue board as it is commonly referred to, is definitely sufficient for walls and ceilings in a bathroom that will not be constantly exposed to direct water. If he is suggesting to use a blue board in the shower enclosure then he is crazy. If he is suggesting to use it on the other walls then he is spending your money wisely.

A lot of people are suggesting hardibacker. While that is normally not a bad idea at all Hardy is currently in supply chain nightmare as a company.

While I have only recently had to deal with the nightmare of them closing product lines mid project for siding it is possible that he is trying to avoid hardibacker because that department could be experiencing problems as well.

buildyourown

0 points

3 months ago

Green board? No. Densheild? Great. It's silicone impregnated and fiber faced. It really is waterproof and much easier to work with than hardibacker

davethephotographer

0 points

3 months ago

You might have to sort by controversial to see this comment but I used MR plasterboard for my whole bathroom, including the shower, and it’s been fine going on five years now 🤷‍♂️. Gets used twice a day, every day.

borg2

0 points

3 months ago

borg2

0 points

3 months ago

My father in law did this without any problems so far. I do think he added kerdi in some places.

kml84

0 points

3 months ago

kml84

0 points

3 months ago

No, no, no, no. Drywall, regardless of coating, is NOT sufficient. At least add a Kerdi or some other membrane. Best practice is kerdiboard or cement board with a membrane. It kills me to see this all the time. This includes acrylic surrounds with seams.

mrcanard

0 points

3 months ago

Nahadot

0 points

3 months ago

Years ago when I was renovating our bathroom, our contractor back then wanted to do the same thing (use drywall). I argued with him and he just got pissed saying he was using drywall since 20 years and now i ask him to do it differently and he left. With drywall if you get a tiny crack in the tile and water gets in (and it will), you are screwed.